this is a thing that happens.

[metaphortunate]

Okay, I have to share this story. It is a secondhand story, as I wasn't personally there, but I got it directly from my friend, so I believe it.

So I have this friend who works at one of our many fine local tech companies. And he recently, at work, ran into a dude he used to work with years ago at a different one of our many fine local tech companies. And my friend said oh hi, guy! When did you start working here? And the other guy said, Just hired. And my friend said, oh really, how'd that go? And the guy said, Well, I failed the phone screen, but I kind of rejected that and got an in-person interview, and that went well and so I just started.

And my friend said…back up. How do you reject failing a phone screen?

And the other guy said, Oh well, when I called to follow up, the HR person told me that I just didn't have enough experience, because my experience at Cisco wasn't relevant to the job I was interviewing for.

And I said, look. I design [ubiquitous and versatile type of hardware]. That's what I do. I didn't know anything about [purpose of projects I worked on at Cisco] before I started on those projects. I didn't know anything about [purpose of projects they had worked on together at Ye Olde Tech Company] before we started working on that. It doesn't matter, I explained, if you know how to design [that type of hardware] you pick the rest of it up as you go along.

And that worked? my friend asked.

And now I work here, the guy confirmed.

------------------

In conclusion, fuck your impostor syndrome, the guys out there aren't dragging that shit around, and may I recommend once again Ask For It: How Women Can Use the Power of Negotiation to Get What They Really Want. Think I'll put it on the reread pile myself.

Comments

[thistleingrey]

Huh. I thought that worked only during the boom (when I used an undergrad lit-analytical essay to get a tech-writing internship, then a real job without reinterviewing), or at least, I wouldn't have the guts to try something analogous under the current economy. *tries to grow more guts*

[pantryslut]

We're in another boom when it comes to tech.

[thistleingrey]

For dev, yes, but it seems not encompassing enough to include documentation, from what I hear.

[pantryslut]

I don't know about documentation, but certainly beyond dev.

And judging by the fact that I'm starting to get feelers for technical writing positions and I am so very much NOT a technical writer, I would bet that that's coming soon, too, if it hasn't arrived already.

[thistleingrey]

Good to know! I hope it can help some of my underappreciated former colleagues. :/

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the interview I just had was for a tech writing gig, and I managed to get as far as a second phone screen with just a credential and no direct experience, so I'm taking that as a sign that writerly jobs are starting to open up more.

[metaphortunate]

That is exactly why I wanted to share this story: to let people know that it is a thing that someone just did, in this economy, right now.

Also, I am not criticizing, because I totally feel your not having the guts thing. And yet - damn, why does it take guts? I mean, what do you have to lose? The guy started OFF in the position where they had rejected him! Nowhere to go but up! It's not like they could be appalled at his rejoinder and go retroactively fire him from his last job!

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

Well, dang. Guess I should've done that with the phone screen I just failed.

I think what I'd manage to be afraid of, though, is that they'd be appalled at my rejoinder and somehow actually bother to tell everybody else in the industry not to hire me.

Why I'm Pretty Sure There Is No Blacklist

[brainwane]

I don't know whether this will help future people who have this sort of fear, but:

I have been a hiring manager or had a say in hiring in multiple tech companies for several years now. If I call up one of a candidate's references, or I already know someone who has worked with them and I talk with one of them, and the reference or known colleague tells me they were incompetent or terrible to work with, then that's a strong indicator that I shouldn't hire them. But that's as far as that sort of tech industry hiring gossip goes, really, unless you have fucked up so publicly that it led to multiple San Jose Mercury News and Valleywag stories featuring your full legal name. This is reserved for, like, coming in as a turnaround CEO and instead running your company into the ground, or creating and distributing a twenty-minute résumé video in which you claim multiple academic degrees you don't have and attempt to demonstrate your mystical and athletic skills.

Even when sharing silly stories about interviews -- "Oh man, I had a phone screen today with a candidate for bug manager and they didn't even know what LAMP stands for" -- I don't share the name of the candidate with people outside recruiting/HR/the interviewer loop at my firm. I don't want to get our asses sued.

And if someone at another company told me, "Hey, you shouldn't hire Firstname Lastname because she was arrogant in her phonescreen," I would be mega-suspicious of that person. We are too hungry to hire good people to take hypothetical mysterious random "don't hire this person" decrees seriously, and "acted so confident in a phonescreen that I didn't like it" tales, even exaggerated ones, just don't rise to "oh ok were were going to hire her but now we will reject!" And why in the world is this informant opening themselves up to this legal liability by talking shit about a candidate by name? Careless.

So I am pretty sure that people at other firms aren't gossipping and that there is no secret hiring blacklist*. I would have run into it by now; HR people are really afraid of lawsuits and want us to be super-confidential about hiring; if we heard someone smearing a person just for being super-confident in a phonescreen then that would not stop us from pursuing the candidate.

Similarly if you try to negotiate for a higher salary and the company ends negotiations because they can't afford you, that will not lead to "oh damn she was hella greedy don't hire her" gossip that magically spreads to every hiring manager, unless you were in line for, like, CEO and the negotiations were reported in TechCrunch.


* [makes note to check whether "blacklist" is an insensitive term to use]

Re: Why I'm Pretty Sure There Is No Blacklist

[metaphortunate]

Thanks for the information!

Re: Why I'm Pretty Sure There Is No Blacklist

[cahn]

This is very interesting, thanks!

(It also occurs to me that in my experience of interviewing people, I very rarely remember the name of the candidate a couple of days later anyway, which would also be a sign that this kind of thing doesn't happen.)

Re: Why I'm Pretty Sure There Is No Blacklist

[wired]

That's so good to hear. I thought that was true, but it's somehow very weird to me that I have moved across the country and the world is STILL REALLY SMALL.

[thistleingrey]

Fair!
I am contemplating changing jobs within the next few years--looks like I need to try adjusting my thinking.

[phi]

I wasn't quite as assertive about it, but that's basically how I got my current job. "Hmm, I don't know, you have no experience in this field." "But I'm smart, my understanding of the fundamentals is solid, and I have all these skills from your neighboring field that will transfer. [rattles off three or four examples of transferable skills]"

I get not having the guts to do it though. When I hung up after the phone screen I was sure they'd rejected me and was miserable for a week (and then I got a call back for an in-person interview).

[kalmn]

Yeah. That whole trying not to throw up while doing it thing is hard.

[thistleingrey]

I'm thinking about changing jobs within the next few years, and that's pretty much what I'll have to try. Good to know that it works some of the time!

[metaphortunate]

I knew you were awesome!

[laurashapiro]

World rocked. Thank you.

[metaphortunate]

It rocked mine, for sure.

[brooksmoses]

Mine, too, and likewise thank you for posting!

I would note that in your final sentence the truth is "some of the guys out there" (though I agree your rhetorical point is far better served without the caveat); I've certainly been held back by feeling inadequate when I was doing just fine -- though I have also been lucky and had very good mentors (my advising professor and my manager) who actively trained me to get past that. I wish more men talked about it.

[jrtom]

I am totally still dragging that shit around. It is practically impossible to work at [company that I work at] without suffering from impostor syndrome at least part of the time. Which is really cool, in a way, because it also means that there are very very few people there that I think shouldn't be there (based on technical skills, anyway; culture fit is a different problem).

Also, I hate negotiating. I have marginally more experience at it than I used to, but I still feel really uncomfortable doing it. (Although it's apparently easier with houses than it is with salaries, for me anyway. :) )

That said, I recognize that I have a lot of built-in advantages that have nothing to do with my technical background that help in interview situations, so I'm not beating my breast and saying "look how much life sucks for me". Just assuring you that at least some guys have this problem too. :)