metaphortunate | advice: other people's children?

Crossposts: http://metaphortunate.livejournal.com/57884.html

Entry tags:

advice: other people's children?

Internets, I come to you for advice.

In my previous incarnation as a much more attractive person who had no children, I didn't come into contact with a lot of kids. And when I did, in retrospect, I realize, I kind of interacted with them on their own level. I didn't do much dealing with them as an authority figure. I set boundaries more in the way that kids set boundaries with each other: rather than as parents do, with rules.

Now that I have kids, I have rules. No spitting in the house, spitting is only for outside. Use your inside voice inside, outside voice is for outside. You may only throw things if they are squishy. You can climb into the baby's crib but not stand in it because it is not stable enough. You can poke Mama gently but not hard. You must be gentle with the baby. If food lands on the floor, your meal is over. You must ask before picking up my phone. That sort of thing.

So that's easy enough to do with my child - relatively speaking, I mean. Mr. E and I decide what the rules are, and the Junebug decides whether he would rather follow them or take the consequences, and we decide what the consequences are and enforce them.

But then there are other people's kids. Other people's kids come over to our house or whatever, and now there are questions. Do they have to follow our rules? If they don't have to follow our rules, why does the Junebug have to? Especially if it's rules about not grabbing toys or hats from each other/taking turns/not hitting: I want to enforce good manners from my child, but I really do not want to teach him that I will enforce rules about respect on him but not on anyone else. If other kids have to follow our rules, do I enforce consequences if they choose not to? Their parents will have Opinions about that. If I had infinite time to discuss with the parents in advance, I'm sure we could come to reasonable agreements, because my friends are all reasonable people: but we don't, and consequences need to happen in real time for kids to take them onboard.

And how do I back up other parents' consequences? If a kid does something to me or my stuff that their parent has told them not to do, how do I reaffirm that it's bad and I don't like it without implying that their kid is bad or that their parenting is bad?

Internets, how do you deal with other people's kids, when you're not in an official position of authority over them? (Nannying is different, I expect.)

This question brought to you by the frequent interaction of:

Junebug: *grabs at someone on the bus, or at their phone*
Me: Stop. Do not grab at the people. They do not want to be grabbed.
Stranger: Oh, it's okay, it's fine.
Stranger: *wants to make me feel better about my ill-mannered child*
Junebug: *learns that Mama is making up rules for no reason*
Me: *is frustrated*

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

N frequently chides me for bossing other people's children, so I may not be the best example. I feel free to tell other kids what to do, and I have picked them up and carried them, called their parents, and put them in time out for infractions when at my house. The only way the rules change when other kids are over is that guests get to decide what games to play or toys to engage with, and get first turn. Everything else goes for everyone. And for strangers' kids I always enforce what their parents say. I appreciate it when other people hold the line with my kid the way I would with theirs! Someday I will get in trouble for this, but it's a conscious strategy. It takes a village of people who are actively TRYING to raise a child, after all, not a village of people undermining one another.

I don't have kids of my own, but I do interact with other people's kids at church, both formally (as a sunday school teacher) and informally (as a grownup sitting in the choir stalls behind the row of children's choir members). I don't hesitate to enforce reasonable behavior in either context, although I guess the informal one is more relevant to your question. I'll ask kids to change seats if they're fighting with each other; if a stray child from the pews runs up on the altar or worse, starts banging on the piano or drums I'll lead them away (or pick them up if they're small enough and consent to being picked up); I'll provide crayons and paper for bored-but-trying-to-behave kids. Sometimes parents will get really embarrassed that someone else noticed and corrected their kid's bad behavior, which is kind of awkward, but not actually my problem; sometimes they'll thank me; only once has someone given me grief for it, but I pretty firmly believe that it's okay to treat children like any other human being and enforce boundaries for your own comfort and safety with them, especially if they are out in public and their parent isn't doing anything about their behavior.

Edited 2013-12-04 19:09 (UTC)

I tell Stranger, "I appreciate it, but this is an important rule for us."

When SteelyKid's friends come over, the main rule I've had to enforce is "if you can't agree among yourselves about the use of that toy, I'm taking it away." But you bet I'm going to enforce no hitting, etc., if I have to (I think I'd go warning --> time-out --> calling parents to come get).

For kids at the park, I intervene only if there's obvious danger, not because I'm worried about lawsuits but because I don't want to set up the other child's parent for extra grumpiness. For my daughter's classmates, I stick to classroom rules or what little I know of their parents' rules. But so far, I haven't had to consider the non-overlap of others' rules much, except as pertains to darkforge's relatives, because classmate parents have been super considerate and careful. For the most part, at birthday parties we've overlapped well enough on house rules that it hasn't been a big deal, and we talk about the little differences without having her declare them unfair. Thus I am very interested to read people's advice here--I know it's coming....

(Reason is still relatively shy and thus not apt to get into others' personal space much. I mean, little kid doesn't look behind her or sometimes before her while walking, but we haven't had much direct intentional contact: mostly she still hides her face and giggles when a stranger on bus or train says hi.)

When kids are over at our house (and other parent is not present), they play by our rules and our consequences. (If Other Parent has additional rules that they want us to have the kid follow, that would be fine with me, but this has not really happened very much. If so, I say, "I don't think your mom/dad wants you to do that," and stop them, although I don't usually have consequences on top of that for kids who are not My Kid.) I usually frame it to the kid in terms of "In this house, this is what we do," and so far I haven't had much pushback. Kids are pretty good, I think, at realizing that different people/spaces may have different rules.

When we go to other people's houses, we follow their rules. If I am also at other kid's house, we follow both their rules and my rules -- for example, total meltdown of my kid because of being overwhelmed by slight frustration is more likely to be treated leniently by another adult because they do not realize that we have been working on her not doing this for lo these many months. If I am there it will be treated the same way it is treated in our house (immediate removal from situation until she calms down).

When a parent is present in my house and the kid does something the parent doesn't agree with but which is not a rule in our house, I usually look to the parent to see what they want to do and follow the parent's lead.

I looked after 1.5-almost-4 kids for quite a while at church, so I'm used to taking a more active disciplinary role with respect to other people's (small) kids; if not for that, I am not sure I would be quite so forward about telling other people's kids what they should/should not be doing. (And I don't tend to do this with kids who are older than 4.) As it is, though, I'm pretty used to talking to kids about personal space and grabbing and taking turns. And I think it's a good thing. Kids have to learn that they should behave like civilized human beings, and that even when one adult may not expect it of them, another one will.

ETA: After posting that, I realized there are exceptions, as there are. For example, E's friend doesn't really eat vegetables, so when we had her over for dinner E got her normal small bowl of green beans and L got three green beans, and E wasn't quite sure about this. But we still held L to our family's rule of "try it once, then you don't have to eat any more."

Edited 2013-12-04 18:53 (UTC)

When they are in my house, they follow my rules.

I have resorted to lying to the parents about an emergency to cut short a play date that was going Very Wrong. I didn't rat the kids out or complain to the parents, but they did have to follow the rules and if things were going badly I bailed.

Some parents whose kids I enforced upon never brought their kids back, after a while, presumably because the kids complained about me.

I never had a discussion with the parents, if I remember correctly.

And this problem of conflict with the rules was very rare.

As far as strangers undermining you, that used to happen to me and I would talk to the kids later about how people have different rules and when they are a grownup they can set their own rules but for now, it's Mommy and Daddy's rules full stop.

My boys are 16 and 13 now and so far so good….:)

I was like you -- never much liked kids, never thought about them until I had my own. What a shock!!!!!

"I usually frame it to the kid in terms of "In this house, this is what we do," and so far I haven't had much pushback. Kids are pretty good, I think, at realizing that different people/spaces may have different rules."

This. I don't usually say anything about what their mom or dad might want, but rather establishing that X is a house rule, please follow it. I've only had one kid fail to deal with that situation, and his mom was there (he is autistic and his parents don't let him have unescorted playdates).

Sometimes when kids are getting too rough, I've dealt by temporarily separating them to cool off, or changing venue (going for a walk, moving from the living room to my son's bedroom, going outside).

What would you want the person on the bus to do? I often say, "Oh, it's no problem," and I don't experience it as undermining the parent, so I am clearly Missing Something. Would "It's okay with me, but you should listen to your mommy" be better? Or something else?

My dream response is that the person would smile in a friendly manner at me and the Junebug, then say directly to him "Your mama is right: you must ask people before you touch them." and then either "You may touch my phone/leg/little Kipling bag ornament," or "Please don't touch my phone/leg/little Kipling bag ornament right now," depending on how they feel.

I know right? How did this happen to us...

So one of the things I try to do is not to state rules unless I can enforce them. Did you put the other people's kids in time out, or what did you do? Because if the nuclear option (sending the other kid home) is the only enforcement option, then it creates a bad situation like zero tolerance rules where there's no way to do a minor consequence for a minor infraction so you end up either having to overreact or let stuff slide you really don't want to.

The changing venue thing sounds like a good de-escalation idea!

I can do that! Thanks; that helps a lot.

Good to know. I will be happy if it is okay to put other people's kids in time out, so that there can be a consequences option less drastic than "send the kid home", because of the well established problems with zero tolerance policies (if there's only one type of consequence, then for most infractions you either have to drastically overreact or let them slide entirely, which sucks.)

Good! This sounds right to me. :)

I never spanked someone else's kid, but I did put them in time out or make them play in another area for a few minutes.

These incidents were quite rare, luckily. Or my kids just had very well behaved friends.

When they were older, they have/had a couple of friends who were apparently raised by wolves, and with them I had to have one on one discussions about what kind of behavior I could not tolerate -- like not thanking us for having them over night, playing pranks on me, swearing, excessive roughhousing indoors where they could damage furniture, etc. I never rat them out to the parents but I do discuss with them what rules I expect. I don't present it as a You Are Being Bad lecture but as Here Is the Rule About That At Our House. With the expectations that rules differ.

Again: Very rare, thank goodness.

I have told my kids that despite other parents views about video games, i expect them to NEVER PLAY Grand Theft Auto EVER. Even at someone else's house. Hopefully they will go along with that. :(.

How old is yours now?

Also the best kid book I ever read was How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk.

Yes, this.

I agree with changing venue. Then, usually, administering food and either some much quieter or much more vigorous activity (ie, television or go run around a park)

It is also possible the other kid isn't ready to be left at another person's house without a parent even if they are ok in a more structured day care like environment...

You and I would get along just fine.

Parent my kids, definitely! And I'll parent yours. And we'll agree that for most things, if we have somewhat different of rules, viewpoints, or parenting styles, it's really not going to matter in the grand scheme of things if my kids are living under your rules for a while or yours under mine. And if we have REALLY different of rules or viewpoints, we'll talk about them. Like adults.

Um. I basically just parent other people's kids wherever I happen to be - not exactly as if they were my own, but I don't feel bad about calling out unsafe behavior or about things like offering to tie shoes for the kid who happens to be closer to me than to their own grown-up. Especially f we're out and about as opposed to, say, a playdate, I might make it more about my kids, i.e. "well if this kid isn't playing with you in a way that is safe, it's probably better for you to play somewhere else."

If it's a playdate then it's definitely "our home, our rules." We've not yet had serious behaviour issues from the kids' friends on playdates - usually it's our kids *sigh* - but when they do come up we let them know, like, "I'm glad you're having fun but I need you to have fun in a way that does not threaten the structural integrity of the building, so please don't throw things at the ceiling fan. If things get thrown at the fan again we'll have to ask you to (hand over the thing you are throwing/ cool down in another room/ go outside and play depending on what seems like it might work out best)."

I still really liked

recessional's answer to the strangers who want to help you save face but who're actually accidentally undermining you here: "I'm really glad they didn't upset you, but these are our rules and they know them and need to know they apply all the time."

I think it's something you don't necessarily realize until you're parenting the kid in question, but what's happening is that the parent hears "oh it's no problem" for the social lube that it is, but the kid hears it literally: "oh, it's no problem, ergo that rule is totally arbitrary and I don't have to listen to it evaaaaaaaar"

Kids are fabulously literal and very opportunistic.

I don't have kids of my own, but several of our friends have kids now & we try to make our house as welcoming to small children as a household without children can be. When I'm hosting kids, I make sure they have something appropriate for them to do, an extra something up my sleeve should that fail, and also that they know which things are around that they should NOT mess with (in the event these things can't be put out of their reach to start with) and which are okay. I try to interact with them a lot & I don't leave it just up to their parents, though mostly their parents are close enough friends that these kids are basically nieces/nephews.

Littler kids get more leeway/actual-parent intercession; older kids get the rule explained to them, an alternative to what they're doing presented, etc. I think that what some others have mentioned up-thread is important -- functioning in social situations means that there are different rules in different contexts, and mostly as adults we've internalized/accepted this as "what's appropriate". It is probably harder to make this make sense with small children/toddlers, but I think that the difference of "at home" and "someplace else" is something many small kids in my experience seem to get. So when I'm trying to enforce something, I put it in terms of what's okay here.

All of this is going to be tested, of course, when our friends come to visit in a few weeks; last time they were here, their kid was about 18 months and only newly climbing-mobile, and mama was really permissive in ways that weirded me out, but kidlet doesn't see me often & he was really little. This year will be different, I think.

Appropriate consequences that I would not hesitate to apply to another person's child who was in my care:

1) Time-outs. I don't like time-outs as punishment; they're like the silent treatment in that they inflict misery but don't communicate anything. However, I do like them as ways of giving myself a break before I throttle the little jerk. To that end, I may phrase it as "I think it's time for everyone to have a time out" or "Let's take a time-out together: five minutes of no talking".

2) "You know that's not an okay thing to do. Let's talk about why you did it anyway." This works best on kids old enough to understand moral arguments--but it's worked very well for me with a smart five-year-old and could probably work with even younger kids. Any kid old enough to say "That's not fair!" is old enough to at least give this a shot.

3) "You know that's not an okay thing to do. What do you think the consequence should be?" This works amazingly well with some kids, who will volunteer anything from "I should clean up the mess" to "I should do 50 pushups". Obviously it doesn't work well with kids who are more likely to answer "I should get ice cream" or "You're a doody-head!".

4) Restitution/making good: the kid needs to fix what they broke, clean up the mess, and/or apologize sincerely.

5) Cutting short an ongoing enjoyable activity, or canceling plans for a future enjoyable activity. This only happens after a clear warning that "if you do N (again) we're going home/not going to the park today", and it works best if the infraction is related to the activity. Make sure you have an alternative way to spend the time!

6) Sending the kid back to their parents, if that's an option. Absolute last resort, though.

Also, you'd love being around me on public transit; I'm the one telling other people's kids not to kick me, touch me, etc.

Edited 2013-12-05 07:50 (UTC)

As a childless person who interact with other people's children at work as well as socially, figuring out parental rules is a big deal to me.

In the shop we sometimes have free chocolate samples. My rule, which I try to convince other staff is a a good rule, is that I NEVER offer chocolate or in fact any food to children, but I do let the parent(s) know it's there and that their kids are welcome to try it. If the kids see it, and ask me if they can have some, I tell them to ask their parent(s).

Another shop interaction with kids is sometimes kids will come up with an item and ask if they can have it. My general response is "I don't know, do you have (however much it is)to spend today?" I usually say this so the parent(s)can hear, and make eye contact with both the kid and the parents.

With friends' children, I usually take a similar approach, and check in with the parents a lot. With older children who I know well, I tend find topics that we have in common, like books and movies and talk about them in a non-condescending way, and make some suggestions of other books or movies they might like.

With strangers' kids on public transport, I try to be polite but reserved rather than friendly. If their parent tells them not to touch or talk to me, I agree, and depending on the situation I might politely and matter-of-factly say that I don't to be touched people by people I don't know, and how it's good to ask people for permission before we touch them on purpose. I've found most parents seem okay (or relieved) by this approach.

"you must ask people before you touch them"

I think this is key.

Basically I want to live in a world where people ask for permission before touching other people.

It seems that the novelty of a strange authority figure is enough for SteelyKid's friends, but it's good to plan ahead!

Oh gosh, food. Someone's suddenly being very emotional, put food and drink in front of them ASAP once they're calm.

Well, I grew up in a house where there were very few rules and none of them applied to my friends-because my mother (who'd been abused as a child and teen) wanted ours to be the safehouse kids came to if they were being abused, or even if they were just upset and ran away temporarily. OTOH she didn't make rules about food (I never had to eat ANYTHING I didn't want, not even at other people's homes or the babysitters-in fact she'd yell at them for trying to make me). Our family rules were mostly about safety (don't touch the glass thermometer because if it breaks the mercury is dangerous) and her pleasure (leave the adults alone and take care of yourselves). She always said "R.H.I.P" (rank hath its privileges).

At least half of my high school friends *did* run away to our house. Mom always made them call home before midnight but they could stay over after that.

As a mother myself, I was more like you. Notice how if you reframe your rule so that it is unassailably logical, it's easier to enforce? Also, I always said "you may not" or "you may only" rather than "do not" or "we do not" because obviously we do, and I just did. Also tried to frame things in positive language (e.g., "you may only cross the street while holding my hand" rather than "you may not cross the street unless you are holding my hand") because at the time all the books said that kids don't hear the "not."

I didn't follow my mom's laisse faire approach to other people's children visiting us: in my home, my rules, and I explained that to the parents ahead of time so they could decide whether to let their child visit. In your "stranger on the bus" example if I were the stranger, I'd be reinforcing you as a mother, by saying something like "Your mother is teaching you good rules."

I should have made it clear that everyone's parents have been totally considerate! I am partly thinking ahead, partly trying to figure out how to support other parents' rule enforcing in my space.

The Junebug is almost 2.5 years, Rocket is 2 months. I love that book, I plan to reread it yearly.

Exactly, so I do my bit!

Oh yes, I definitely offer to help tie shoes, brace on the climbing thing, etc., especially at parks or whatever. I will do as much as I can to help other kids grow up feeling that other people are helpful and friendly.

Ugh, I need to work on this. We recently hosted a 5 year old for a week & unfortunately we have toys appropriate up to the ages of 2.5. That was bad of us. :(

Oh my god, that's a GREAT approach. All of them.

Oh yeah. We try to make our rules logical, or at least consistent - I'd like them to be able to generalize from principles. Well, someday.

That's precisely the gap between my boys, wow.

The days are long and the years are short…. best wishes to you. this is the hard part.

Glad to hear it.

I should add that while I have no kids, I have lived with people who do, and have done a heap of babysitting.

I shared with a single dad from when his daughter was 18 months until just before her fourth birthday. So I have quite a lot of experience with toddlers.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

advice: other people's children?

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject